Curse

Premium Unleaded · Dec 22, 2009, 03:42 AM // 03:42

This is also why PvE titles outside of cartographer/guardian/protector/vanquisher are retarded concepts.

The Drunkard · Dec 22, 2009, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barrage

People arguing that farming skills are overpowered, guess what, THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE.

Why should they not be balanced?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barrage

No matter how much you complain, how much they nerf, YOU NEED FARMING ABILITIES. Just because they nerf one, does not mean new ones won't spring up and take its place. Now stop complaining and start actually looking at the effects of no farming skills.

The only build that comes close to replacing Sf would either be the SoS rit or terra tank. None of which are even close to clearing areas in the time SF does but should also be looked at because SoS is compressing 3 skills into one for no energy, and obby can be maintained creating another case of invincibility.

Nerfing 600/smite and permaform will not be the end of the economy/the end of GW. For people like you sputtering BS that everything is going to hell, please do the rest of us a favor and stop posting about it.

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 22, 2009, 04:46 AM // 04:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded

This is also why PvE titles outside of cartographer/guardian/protector/vanquisher are retarded concepts.

QFT

Maybe even skill hunter...though it should be broken up by profession skills instead of campaign, imo.

Such as, Assassin Skill Hunter, Paragon Skill Hunter, etc etc.

Martin Alvito · Dec 22, 2009, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barrage

People arguing that farming skills are overpowered, guess what, THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE.

Back in 2005 we farmed Sorrow's Furnace with Warriors, Monks, Eles and Necros. It was fair tank-and-spank, and ANet still legitimately nerfed the Ele AoE (adding scatter) and the minionmancers (capping minions per Necro).

To those that have been around the game for a while, stuff like Ursan, SF, 605/Smite and Obs Flesh are off-the-charts screaming for a nerf by comparison.

upier · Dec 22, 2009, 04:56 AM // 04:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barrage

People arguing that farming skills are overpowered, guess what, THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE. Without farming skills, well, you know all those pretty little titles you see what you press H? Half of them will be impossible without an unhealthy obsession with holiday quests. 3 consumable titles, alcohol, sweets, and party, all costs a minimum of 3mill along with lucky and treasure hunter, also requiring a large sum of money. How do you people propose we get that much money in a reasonable amount of time. Sure you can waste 4 hours in UW with no SF getting no more than 4 ectos and pray that you get a drop wroth 100e+ but honestly, do you believe you'll get it? No matter how much you complain, how much they nerf, YOU NEED FARMING ABILITIES. Just because they nerf one, does not mean new ones won't spring up and take its place. Now stop complaining and start actually looking at the effects of no farming skills.

I've continuously argued that certain insane options should be kept in this game due to this exact reason, but now I am starting to wonder if maybe a massive trashing of these options shouldn't be in order, thus killing off certain aspects of the game, since it seems that a dead game will be the best reminder of the mistakes made.

]HM[ Sabre Wolf · Dec 22, 2009, 05:06 AM // 05:06

Just got back from vacation... so sorry for being slow on this

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

Pressing Issues

Possible Changes to 600 Smite – The effects of this build on the game are less pronounced than other extreme farming builds, however it operates on the same basic premise of making a character invulnerable all of the time. The developers are looking at changes to some of the skills in this build.

...... must remain calm... do, not rage... just breathe...

Ok... I am just, completely, dumb founded at the lengths to go about nerfing a build that forces people or additions to work together properly. Why dont you go after Raptor Farming or somthing? :45 seconds for a single SOLO Raptor run; and you want to go after a team build that takes up about 20-45 minutes? Did I miss somthing that Lindsey said about helping people play together in the game back at PAX? Because it sounds to me, you all just lied to us if you are nerfing team builds and ignoring Solo builds like Raptor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

Addressing Other Issues

Again, please keep in mind that not all of these changes may make it into the next skill balance, and the changes may be different.

Hammer Mastery – Hammer suffers from a number of issues that make it difficult to take over other Warrior weapons in PvE. For example, the combination of high adrenaline costs, slow attack rate, and battles ending relatively quickly in PvE mean that it can be hard to use skills before a battle is over and mean that being blocked feels much harsher. We’re looking at a number of approaches to address these and other issues.
Tactics – Tactics is the least exciting Warrior attribute and primarily sees use as a secondary attribute on other classes. We’re considering several options to address the weaknesses of Tactics.

I will say that this is your only saving grace with me... for now... being that my main is Warrior... so I am looking forward to these tweaks. I personally have tried looking at ways to work Hammer into PvE... and with everything being so Adr heavy... and the mobs spread out and killed so fast you dont even get a skill off, just makes the weapon totally useless...

And on a side note... at least you are not nerfing Shadow Form into oblivion like a couple of skills from the past... and making it possiably useful for somthing or other...

Ugh · Dec 22, 2009, 11:14 AM // 11:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sabre Wolf

Ok... I am just, completely, dumb founded at the lengths to go about nerfing a build that forces people or additions to work together properly. ... Did I miss somthing that Lindsey said about helping people play together in the game back at PAX? Because it sounds to me, you all just lied to us if you are nerfing team builds and ignoring Solo builds like Raptor.

You can use a hero half the time. Not much teamwork there.

Quote:

Quote:

People arguing that farming skills are overpowered, guess what, THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE. Without farming skills, well, you know all those pretty little titles you see what you press H? Half of them will be impossible without an unhealthy obsession with holiday quests. 3 consumable titles, alcohol, sweets, and party, all costs a minimum of 3mill along with lucky and treasure hunter, also requiring a large sum of money. How do you people propose we get that much money in a reasonable amount of time. Sure you can waste 4 hours in UW with no SF getting no more than 4 ectos and pray that you get a drop wroth 100e+ but honestly, do you believe you'll get it? No matter how much you complain, how much they nerf, YOU NEED FARMING ABILITIES. Just because they nerf one, does not mean new ones won't spring up and take its place. Now stop complaining and start actually looking at the effects of no farming skills.

I've continuously argued that certain insane options should be kept in this game due to this exact reason

Two brokens don't make a fix. If farming builds are nerfed, the titles will also (probably) get fixed if there is enough of a reaction in the community. But, leaving everything broken just to make some optional titles a bit less of a grind is a terrible reason.

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Why even bother modifing skills anymore, it's not balance at all. What the hell are you trying to balance?

OMG! NOTHING'S BALANCED, JUST GIVE UP!!! RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!

Tenebrae · Dec 22, 2009, 11:38 AM // 11:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

OMG! NOTHING'S BALANCED, JUST GIVE UP!!! RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!

Hahaha , viva la resistance !

I really hope that this delay is worth it , not just to see some SF rework , and 2 more skills changed .

upier · Dec 22, 2009, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

Two brokens don't make a fix.

Adding broken crap doesn't fix the game. What it can do it provide a bandaid to negate some of the bigger broken crap in the game though.
This definitely isn't the best solution - but at least it's the devil that we know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

If farming builds are nerfed, the titles will also (probably) get fixed if there is enough of a reaction in the community.

I seriously doubt it. Especially after the guys at A.Net said that they do not plan on reworking additional titles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

But, leaving everything broken just to make some optional titles a bit less of a grind is a terrible reason.

Title grind is just as optional as SF is. You are able to play the game without resorting to any grind, just as you are able to play the game without ever using SF.
Don't like grind, don't do it = don't like SF, don't use it.
Right?

Trip555 · Dec 22, 2009, 12:09 PM // 12:09

I think for most Online RPGs you do the Campaign and then you want to go to the elite areas, the endgame part.
Doing these is often a nightmare in GW, because there are not enough people for month or too many unexperienced people if its the current Zaishen Quest..
After the nerf it will get worse, because you cannot do Four Horseman with a Balanced team without a Perma or similar.
Also Foundry of failed Creations is a nightmare with Pugs (if you are lucky to get one going), that's why people pay 20k+ for a run, rather then trying it.

So before they bring these Nerfs, they should rebalance Domain of Anguish and Underworld and possibly other Areas. Or at least allowing bringing Henchman as a first step.
As it is now the Endgame content can be very frustrating for balancend teams and will be even more after the Perma nerf.

UnChosen · Dec 22, 2009, 12:09 PM // 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

You can use a hero half the time. Not much teamwork there.

Massively buff loot for groups with more players, implement a dozen different titles based on team work....problem solved. Ohh I forgot, titles should only be extremely grindy and completely unattainable without gimmick farms or perfect guilds.

Quote:

Two brokens don't make a fix. If farming builds are nerfed, the titles will also (probably) get fixed if there is enough of a reaction in the community. But, leaving everything broken just to make some optional titles a bit less of a grind is a terrible reason.

Probably....as in NEVER. People who don't have super guilds or dedicated friend groups are also people who tend to be casual enough not to post on forums. They just leave the area to do easy solo farms or just leave the game. Meanwhile, less casual people like me that actually want to see the game NOT turn into H/h + guilds get screwed over, because the skill whiners scream the loudest and drowns out all the other (even bigger) issues in the game.

Quote:

OMG! NOTHING'S BALANCED, JUST GIVE UP!!! RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!

I rather have the game unbalanced but playable. Rather than balanced and I get stuck with empty areas, H/h, and begging guildies. Its bad enough that only UW has people playing, I rather they work on getting at least the end game areas and dungeons more lively than focusing on SF.

Tenebrae · Dec 22, 2009, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Adding broken crap doesn't fix the game. What it can do it provide a bandaid to negate some of the bigger broken crap in the game though.
This definitely isn't the best solution - but at least it's the devil that we know.

Every walk begins with a little step dude and "broken crap" is added and not going to be entirely reworked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Title grind is just as optional as SF is. You are able to play the game without resorting to any grind, just as you are able to play the game without ever using SF.
Don't like grind, don't do it = don't like SF, don't use it.
Right?

Thats why he says that the mere existance of grinding optional titles is never reason enough to keep broken stuff in the game so they are less grinding , at least that is what i read.

BogusDude · Dec 22, 2009, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Lets get one thing straight, they ARE NOT nerfing solo farming. They in no way suggest they are and in no way are that stupid to try to. Just because they like to try to promote team play does not mean they are stupid enough to destroy something that is a big part of every mmorpg. This potential nerf has nothing to do with how many characters are used to do a farm or how many skills are needed to be maintained. Its all about speed and quantity. If they reduce the speed and the quantity theres no need to nerf anything.

Seriously, i wander if some of the people posting here even play the game or just sit about QQing on guru all day :P

Ugh · Dec 22, 2009, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Adding broken crap doesn't fix the game. What it can do it provide a bandaid to negate some of the bigger broken crap in the game though.
This definitely isn't the best solution - but at least it's the devil that we know.

I'd rather have Anet weed out the broken crap than just add more in an attempt to cover it up.

Quote:

I seriously doubt it. Especially after the guys at A.Net said that they do not plan on reworking additional titles.

If they really become "impossible" (like whoever I previously quoted said), Anet might have to make them a bit more reasonable. If they don't, it doesn't really matter since titles have no effect on gameplay.

Quote:

Title grind is just as optional as SF is. You are able to play the game without resorting to any grind, just as you are able to play the game without ever using SF.
Don't like grind, don't do it = don't like SF, don't use it.
Right?

This is semi-true. But, almost all elite areas use some sort of perma in their team, so restricting myself from SF would result in me getting restricted from end-game content as well.

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Massively buff loot for groups with more players, implement a dozen different titles based on team work....problem solved.

- This would encourage leeching
- Why change game mechanics instead of an OP farming build?
- How would a teamwork title work?

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Ohh I forgot, titles should only be extremely grindy and completely unattainable without gimmick farms or perfect guilds.

The "Teamwork Title" would have to be extremely grindy as well. If it wasn't, people would quickly gain the title and go back to their 1-2 man farms.

Quote:

I rather have the game unbalanced but playable. Rather than balanced and I get stuck with empty areas, H/h, and begging guildies. Its bad enough that only UW has people playing, I rather they work on getting at least the end game areas and dungeons more lively than focusing on SF.

Agreed. Hopefully, Anet will fix the elite areas along with (or shortly after) the nerf of SF and 600.

WarcryOfTruth · Dec 22, 2009, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barrage

People arguing that farming skills are overpowered, guess what, THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE. Without farming skills, well, you know all those pretty little titles you see what you press H? Half of them will be impossible without an unhealthy obsession with holiday quests. 3 consumable titles, alcohol, sweets, and party, all costs a minimum of 3mill along with lucky and treasure hunter, also requiring a large sum of money. How do you people propose we get that much money in a reasonable amount of time. Sure you can waste 4 hours in UW with no SF getting no more than 4 ectos and pray that you get a drop wroth 100e+ but honestly, do you believe you'll get it? No matter how much you complain, how much they nerf, YOU NEED FARMING ABILITIES. Just because they nerf one, does not mean new ones won't spring up and take its place. Now stop complaining and start actually looking at the effects of no farming skills.

In all technicalities, you do not NEED money to get Sweet Tooth, Party Animal and Drunkard, or even Treasure Hunter/Wisdom. Let's look and see:

Sweet Tooth: Candy Canes, Red/Blue/Green Rock Candy, Creme Brulee... etc... can all be obtained in game, with no money down and 0 payments til 2015 (hehe), sure, it may take awhile to do that, but you can get it without paying a dime for any of the sweets.

Party Animal: Sparklers, Firework Crates, Bottle Rockets, those can all be obtained for Zaishen Coins, doing the daily Zaishen Mission/Bounty/Combat. Disco Balls are obtainable from the traveler, and the Snowmen Summoners/Ghost-in-the-Boxes and what not are holiday ones, can be obtained during respective holiday events. Again, sure it will take awhile, but saying you NEED TO FARM MONEY TO ACHIEVE THESE TITLES... is not true

Drunkard: Same thing, Kegs of Ale, Firewater, Aged Ale and all that jazz are all obtainable in game. Do Fronis Irontoe's Lair on HM over and over to receive enough Aged Ale to max it. Not only are you not spending money, but you make some each time you do the dungeon (I think?).

Treasure Hunter/Wisdom: These titles are somewhat respective, for a lot of times when you open a high end chest, you may get a gold drop. But just do a lot of HM areas and obtain Lockpicks, open chests, ID the golds etc. Sure, getting 10,000 lockpick drops sounds like its crazy, and I'm sure it is, but I'm just proving my point that you do not need to FARM any money for titles.

Even skill hunter now no longer requires money, you do the daily Zaishen Mission/Bounty/Combat to get coins and buy tomes. The only money required is the transfer from Copper --> Silver ---> Gold then exchanging the Gold coins and 100 gold for the tomes, but as you do the Zaishen Quests, that usually covers you anyway.

My point is, you do NOT need farming builds for anything, except getting rich fast, rather than working hard for your money and doing dungeons/elite areas the way they are supposed to be done, difficultly and not 20-30 minutes. Any titles I have obtained did not require any farming build what-so-ever, so I am totally looking forward to this big update of farming build nerfs. And with that, I thank you for your time if you read all of this

Barrage · Dec 22, 2009, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Why should they not be balanced?

Because farming has always. and will always be done with skills OP in pve while not spilling into the other end game of PVP.

Mindbender · Dec 22, 2009, 08:42 PM // 20:42

I just see Ecto's going to 15K ap.... I'll never get my Obsidian Armor this way...

Arduin · Dec 22, 2009, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mindbender

I just see Ecto's going to 15K ap.... I'll never get my Obsidian Armor this way...

Welcome to 2005

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 22, 2009, 11:06 PM // 23:06

What I worry about, is that skills like Retribution and Holy Wrath are just going to get nerfed into the ground to counter 600/smite...rather than reworking them into viable balanced party skills.

Like...make Retribution into a castable enchant (not maintained), keep the same effect, but end it after X attacks.

Like...5 energy, 1/4 cast time, 10 recharge. For 20 seconds, the next 10 attacks cause 33% of the damage back to the attacker.

Maybe a bit weak...but it's at least viable in something other than gimmicks.

bigtime102 · Dec 22, 2009, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Please dont call it balance, call it changes, theres nothing balanced about being able to pick your own build, there will always be the best most effiecient build unless you give everyone the same skill bar which I dont think anyone wants that kind of balance, but it is the only real balancing you could do.

That being said I welcome skill changes to shake things up, maybe have it kind of seasonal like Fesitivals, where certain skills go back to what they were before or change them outrite and let us figure out the new best build. Thats the only way to do it. Lets just no pretend its going to be balanced, it never will be. Change them for change sake, which could mean buffing or nerfing, but not balance.